The Mitie Podcast: From Heathrow’s uptime to the next era of performance

Series 2, Episode 3: How do workplaces need to adapt to support multi-generational talent?

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Chris: Welcome to the High-Performing Places podcast from Mitie, hosted by us, the Workplace Geeks. My name’s Chris Moriarty…

Ian: And I’m Ian Ellison.

Chris: And we’re back, exploring the question running throughout this second series: what makes a place truly high-performing? And the question we’re asking on this particular episode is: ‘How do workplaces need to adapt to attract and support multigenerational talent?’

Ian: What’s fascinating is that this isn’t just a demographic question, as organisations face the challenge of making work work, for pretty much the broadest employee age range we’ve ever seen, from 18 to 80. It’s behavioural. It’s cultural. And it’s technological, for as many as five generations in the workplace at once.

Chris: Now, Mitie have been exploring this topic, alongside the perennial debate around workplace productivity, in some of their recent insight reports. Their research shows widespread dissatisfaction with workplace conditions, inefficiencies dragging down productivity, and different generations wanting different things from the workplace. And to that list, we can add growing concerns about attention, wellbeing and neuro-inclusivity.

Ian: So today we’re exploring some of this Mitie research, getting under the skin of generational theory and workplace wellbeing and discussing a real-world case study with Lloyds Banking Group.

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Ian: But before we do any of this – Chris, you’re 43, correct?

Chris: Uh, yeah.

Ian: So that makes you very early Generation Y, also known as a ‘millennial’, and also on the boundary of being a ‘digital native’ – someone, according to academic Marc Prensky, who coined the phrase – who grew up with digital tech as it transitioned from specialist to mainstream. Your teen years included the arrival of the internet, and socio-politically, 9-11 and the war on terror.

Chris: Now, I remember seeing the internet spoken about as this new innovation on breakfast television, without really understanding what it was. So I certainly don’t count myself as a digital native. We sort of just… it sort of just landed on us in our teens, and we just muddled through it.

Ian: Yeah, I agree. I think Millennials are kind of the analogue-digital transition generation. I’m 51, so that makes me a Gen Xer. And I’m on the other side of Prensky’s model – a ‘digital immigrant’. I met and embraced digital technology further into my twenties, and like the generations before me, remember a very different world without it.

Chris: Our children, on the other hand, have been born into a very, very different world. Now I think I’m right in saying Ian, your teenage daughter is a young Gen Z-er, right?

Ian: She is indeed.

Chris: And my even younger twins are the newest generation to date, Gen Alpha. Neither Gen Z or Alpha can know a world without online, always-on, streamable content and social media feels like. Chances are, they’ll get their own smartphone around the time they start secondary school. And on top of that, we always know where they are.

Ian: So what we’ve been bringing to life here is of course ‘generational theory’. Its modern origins can be tracked back to the 1920s, when Karl Mannheim published ‘The Problem of Generations’. Post war, in the 1950s, researchers in demography and social psychology began tracking birth cohorts to understand long-term social change. Then in 1991 William Strauss and Neil Howe wrote ‘Generations’, popularising the modern labels we’re now familiar with.

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Chris: And here’s our first guest, Paul, to explain more.

Paul: I’m Dr. Paul Redmond. I’m a speaker, writer, researcher. I’ve spent much of my career working in universities across the UK where I’ve been responsible for students; Millennials, and Gen Z. And I spend my time now working with organisations around the world, helping them adapt to this new multigenerational world.

Ian: Now of course, universities have always been one type of workplace with multiple generations under the same roof, as have schools and colleges.

Paul: I think it’s a fascinating subject. The idea of generations isn’t new, it’s been around for literally thousands of years. So, the concept of generational change goes back to Homer and the Old Testament. So it’s a very established concept, but essentially, it’s the idea that people embody the times in which they grow up – that somehow the technology, the politics, the culture, the music, the society – embeds itself somehow, psychologically, on us. And it gives us a certain way of viewing the world, a lens to help us understand the world. Now this isn’t to suggest that we don’t have agency – this is a key point that I always emphasise. We do have agency, but that takes place within a framework. And that framework is your generational outlook.

Chris: So this isn’t about lazy stereotypes, which is often where generational debates start. It’s actually about how the environments people grew up in affect them – their outlook, their perspectives, how they engage in wider society. Their socio-technical habitat, or ‘milieu’, if you like.

Paul: The Greeks use a phrase, ‘habitus’. So we embody things like social class, for example. Our background, our culture, it’s somehow embedded. We’re not clean slates. Even though we can resist and we can change, I can challenge. But it, it’s a sort of a way of looking at the world that we inherit. So it’s not [a] straight jacket, but it’s something that I think gives people an outlook, a certain way of viewing the world.

We’re all members of a generation. We can’t see our generation. It’s, [in] many respects, it’s the assumptions that we take for granted. How you dress, for example, how you work, how you spell, how you write, how you communicate is all shaped by your generation.

I’m probably the end of the ‘boomer’ era. I’m probably the last person in this building wearing a tie this morning. ‘Cause for my generation, when I’m speaking, when I’m giving a lecture, I’ve tried not wearing a tie, but it just feels so wrong.

Chris: But right now, technology is arguably accelerating generational distinctions faster than our workplaces can catch up.

Paul: But what I found in particular is technology is advancing, accelerating generation change like never before.

Ian: And this talks directly to the research. Mitie’s insights don’t just show dissatisfaction with workplace environments. When you consider the productivity data alongside higher reporting of mental health and neurodiversity among younger workers, it suggests that traditional workplaces are particularly misaligned with how many early-career employees need to focus at work.

Chris: And attention, Paul says, is becoming the defining constraint.

Paul: I think that the future is a multi-generational workplace, and we’ve never had this before, largely ’cause people used to die really early in the world of work. Today, we will have multigenerations – four, maybe five, generations – rubbing shoulders together each with a very different outlook on what constitutes a good work environment.

I think the future is going to be, it’s not going to be how jazzy we can make the office, how fun we can make it for the youngest generations. The key message is going to be, ‘why are we all here together in this space?’ And I think that the most valuable commodity in the future workplace will be attention.

Ian: However, Paul also points out the paradox we currently face.

Paul: While technology is transforming the world of work, we are losing the ability to pay attention. That’s my big concern at the moment. This technology that we all have with us is sapping our attention at the worst possible time.

Ian: Now I think this is a point that needs a little… attention… see what I did there?

Chris: Wow. Wow.

Ian: Haha… but seriously, just pause for a moment and reflect on what gets in the way of just getting work done. The gremlins of attention – distractions – are everywhere. Environmental things like noise, and all those niggling discomforts you find in a typical workplace. Organisational things like politics, workload, and tedious colleagues. Social stuff from friends and family.

But if we’re honest, how much distraction do we actually allow in, even *cause* ourselves? The smartphones that never leave our sides. Relentlessly multi-tasking in meetings. Avoiding those tricky jobs in favour of easy admin… or even online shopping. I think we’re complicit. We all tolerate and participate in a game of distraction, it’s just that some of us are better than others at playing it. The result of all of this though impacts our overall wellbeing – our feelings about satisfaction, purpose, happiness and anxiety. Welcome to the world we live in.

Chris: Look – you make some valid points. Mitie’s data shows younger workers are twice as likely to report mental health concerns and far more likely to identify as neurodivergent. So let’s bring Leagh into the discussion here.

Leagh: I’m Leagh Cater. Director of Client Strategy, Workplace and Change at Mitie. I work with our top 50 clients to design and deliver integrated workplace and FM strategies.

There’s more sensitivity around how these children are brought up and raised. And something that we noticed actually in the report is that more and more of the 18 to 34 year olds recognised themselves as having a mental health condition or diagnosed with a neurodiversity condition. And so with that, there is an expectation of what the workplace needs to look and feel like.

Ian: Maybe, but it’s not just the younger staff who can struggle here. Leagh agrees with Paul regarding attention.

Leagh: The attention span of, I would say all generations, appears to be waning significantly due to the advancement of technology and the introduction of mobile phones and that ‘constantly on’ situation.

Chris: And Leagh also observes something more consistent for all generations.

Leagh: There are overlaps between all the generations, around expectations of value, respect, purpose, and fairness. Right. So I think every generation, expects to have a sense of purpose and belonging. ‘Cause that is essentially human nature.

So one of the things that we are looking at for one of our clients is around how does social value, energy and sustainability initiatives play into that workplace strategy and how does it align to the company and organisational strategy to give them a sense of value and purpose?

Ian: I think it’s really interesting how closely you can link ‘purpose’ and ‘feeling valued’ to wellbeing. Those four feelings I mentioned just now – satisfaction, purpose, happiness and anxiety – sharp listeners might have spotted that I was referring to the ‘ONS4’ – the four personal wellbeing measures that the Office of National Statistics has been using to measure personal wellbeing in the UK since 2011.

Chris: So against this multigenerational backdrop, it sounds like we’ve got three universal things to consider seriously to create the most attractive workplaces that work for everyone. Attention, purpose and wellbeing.

Okay. Let’s park this discussion for now. It’s time to hear from some workplace experience specialists.

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Ian: Lloyds Banking Group is one of the UK’s largest corporate employers, with tens of thousands of colleagues across hundreds of locations. They’re also in the middle of a major workplace transformation. Time to meet Elizabeth Linden.

Elizabeth: My name’s Elizabeth Linden. I am Group Head of Workplace Experience, and that is end-to-end provisioning of the workplace, the operational running, experience in terms of facilitating community connection and belonging for our colleagues. To curate and foster that sense of belonging through events, through community initiatives with our charity partners as well as local partners and also with our networks. So it really is how we bring our workplace culture to life.

Chris: And working with Elizabeth is Sarah.

Sarah: I am Sarah Tait, and I’m a Senior Workplace Experience Lead, which means I look after the workplace experience within our offices, which looks at employee engagement, communities, events, and how we learn from what colleagues tell us to be able to then create an environment where they want to come, belong and thrive. Everything from making sure the toilets are working, all the way up to throwing the office parties.

If that fundamental part of the almost silent running is happening and happening really well, then we can layer on more of the experiential factors so we can lay on the breakfast that we put on for colleagues to connect with each other. The wellbeing sessions, the networking sessions, which creates that holistic workplace experience.

I’ve called it often an ecosystem, so it’s like every little part has to be working and everyone has to be playing their part to be able to make sure that it’s the overall holistic environment, which is how we get to a place where colleagues feel like they really belong and can create really great, meaningful connections in the workplace.

Chris: What I really like about this is the recognition that buildings – the physical asset – is only part of the experience equation.

Elizabeth: Improving the physical asset is only the baseline. You know, the environment doesn’t build culture. Part and parcel of how we design spaces and then how we service spaces, it’s not just a question of will this reduce cost and improve efficiency? To me, I’m absolutely asking will this foster belonging? Is this going to strengthen collaboration? Is this going to support wellbeing? And how are we going to facilitate access to all the good things that we offer within our workplace and within our communities?

Chris: So why is this particularly mission critical for Lloyds?

Sarah: We are moving away from traditional high street banking towards becoming the largest FinTech organisation in the UK. So that means that we need to attract a different kind of workforce to be able to fulfil that need. The difference is gonna be in all of the small things that we do that add up to make who we are as Lloyds.

We’ve done some really symbolic changes recently, which is huge for an organisation that’s been around for hundreds of years. We have turned the face of the horse around on our logo, and that sounds like something really small, but it’s so symbolic. So the horse is now facing forward instead of looking back.

Which is symbolic in a way that we are looking to move and accelerate and move faster forward. So that’s a really important symbolic action that we’ve created that signals what we are looking to do.

Ian: So it sounds like a great workplace experience at Lloyds isn’t just about employees feeling valued. Alongside this, as Sarah explains, it maps directly to business purpose.

Sarah: How do we create environments that colleagues want to come to, that they want to stay and they want to return to? So, it’s going to set us apart in a market where we are bidding for talent, and we are making sure that we attract and retain the right talent.

And the war for talent that we are in at the moment for a banking industry, we’re actually fighting for technology talent and we know that technology companies have got offices that are these great spaces, and we’re not in a position anymore where we can use the old-fashioned stick. It’s like, we’ve got to create the carrot and create the right environments for people to go, do you know what? I had a great day today in the office and I had that because of X, Y, Z. And that’s why people then want to go back, and that then means that other people then want to come as well.

Chris: There’s been this endless debate about the value of offices to bring people together – and the importance of collaboration to organisational culture – since the pandemic. Bringing in the generational perspective, Elizabeth talks about the value of both mentoring – and also reverse mentoring, depending on the skills to be shared.

Elizabeth: I think for us, having so many demographics within the workplace, definitely features massively heavily within our thinking, not just from a design perspective. ‘Cause for me, design really is the foundational piece, but how we actually operationalise that experience.

I think the most important thing, that I see as a real key area that we absolutely support and help influence, is around that opportunity for growth. So it’s that opportunity around skills and career progression and I think that actually is something that both the Gen Zs and the Millennials, as well as people at the later life stages of their careers, can absolutely be intertwined to benefit, massively, both in terms of mentoring and coaching.

Ian: Now, that bit there about ‘life stages’ from Elizabeth – it’s an important phrase. Because whilst some – like Dr Paul Redmond and Mitie with their report – choose to foreground generations as their analytical construct, others actually don’t.

The UK’s ONS – Office of National Statistics – for example, sticks with non-generational age ranges for its data collection. This is because there are most definitely behavioural differences within generations – sometimes more variation within than between them actually – with age, socio-economic background, education and digital access often factoring significantly too.

So I’m glad to hear career and life stages mentioned, alongside the recognition of the increasingly reported neurodiverse and mental health needs earlier in the podcast.

Chris: So I think what I’m hearing then Ian, is the need to design diverse and inclusive workplace experiences, irrespective of age, with organisational purpose and employee attention and wellbeing at the heart of them?

Maybe, thinking about what Paul said about the socio-technical landscape we grew up in affecting how we perceive the world, is that whilst we want many of the same fundamental things, we express how we feel about them differently?

Ian: Yeah, I think that’s a really good way to frame it – and Sarah talks along those lines too.

Sarah: The generational overlay is really important because it helps us to understand what their more surface level needs are to be able to create experiences around that. But I fundamentally believe that everyone still wants a nice welcome when they walk into an office and everyone wants to feel respected. Everyone wants to feel heard. Everyone wants to feel seen.

Everyone should be treated as an individual, and it should be getting to know what it is that that person in front of you needs. What it is that they’re saying, really understanding what it is that they’re asking, to be able to respond to their needs in that moment, rather than assuming that a Baby Boomer because they’re wearing a tie, needs to be treated in a different way to a Gen Z that is wearing flip flops and socks.

Chris: So, Lloyds gives us an example of what adaptation can looks like: solid workplace fundamentals, layered experiences, sense of belonging, flexibility and development. But how do you design workplaces that deliver this day-to-day?

Good workplace experience doesn’t happen by accident. It’s designed, operated and constantly adjusted. Few people know this better than Sue Hyun, who leads Workplace Consultancy at Mitie.

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Sue: I’m Sue Hyun, Principal in Smart Workplaces at Mitie, and I head up Workplace Consultancy and Advisory. My role is helping organisations transform their workplaces in ways that genuinely support people and performance, while also enhancing their workplace experience, so making them more healthier and inclusive and more engaging places to be.

I also focus a lot on using data and insights to build a more evidence-based understanding of how people and places interact. And the recommendations we provide to the customers are not just ideas, but actions backed by data and evidence from people and places.

Chris: And Sue’s work shows how different people – generations, individuals – and different sensory profiles, can experience the same environment in completely different ways.

Sue: I focus on capturing people’s experience, not just the physical metrics of the space. But how supported or distracted they feel day to day, to provide more relevant solutions and recommendations for the organisations to transform their workplaces in a positive way to support their people.

We can measure, like, number of desks and square footage and also kilowatts in terms of energy efficiency. But it’s harder to know if someone feels supported or distracted. Or even engaged or burnt out in the workplace. So too often organisations only realise that there’s a problem when issues escalate into stress, disengagement, or even attritions.

So many organisations still underestimate how people experience the same environment really differently. And for me, the effort is about making the invisible visible.

Ian: What I recognise here is Sue’s inherent awareness of the difference between ‘workspace productivity’ – how efficiently a building is performing, versus ‘human productivity’ – how effectively people are performing. Now Chris, you and I both know very well indeed how heated the P word debate can get in workplace circles.

Chris: Oh yes indeed! And as Sue says, to really understand what’s going on, you need different types of data – not just quantitative, but qualitative.

Sue: Quantitative data only tells part of the story, but together with sentiment data or feedback, even the feedback from workshops or everyday conversations and even structured surveys, they can actually give us much deeper insight into how well a workplace is working for their people.

And the change I can see these days is not about cost or efficiency. And it’s about people feel that they can focus and collaborate and even thrive in the spaces they’re given. That’s a very different lens from efficiency alone, to outcomes that genuinely support people and their performance.

Chris: This is where design meets wellbeing. And it’s exactly what Ann-Marie Aguilar has been working on with the WELL Building Standard.

Ann-Marie: My name’s Ann-Marie Aguilar.

Chris: Ann-Marie is the ​Senior VP for the EMEA region at the International WELL Building Institute.

Ann-Marie: The WELL Building Standard was the first standard to look at the concept of mind. Really understanding that if you want to increase cognitive behaviour, you have to be able to address, what are the things that impact that? And that could be as simple as low ventilation. It could be high carbon dioxide, it could be reduced views to the outdoors.

I mean, we are human beings that essentially are connected to nature. And if we deprive human beings from access to things like natural light, fresh air, we see the impact on mental health. There’s no doubt. There’s so many correlations now between even the simple use of biophilic design, which is so much more than just plants and trees inside buildings, it’s really understanding that, you know, nature-based design has an impact on human health and allows the brain to work at a different level.

Ian: More and more evidence suggests that there is a link between workplace design and human performance – both focusing and flourishing – and tools like WELL can help guide design and also identify the strengths and weaknesses of a given workplace. What I particularly like about it is the recognition of community – that interrelational human element – as well as the physical design elements.

Ann-Marie: We spend a lot of time with a concept called community. We know that social isolation is one of the biggest challenges we have today. So to be able to really look at how we design spaces for social interaction, how we get HR involved in making sure that there is not a siloed approach to how we manage the people. That there’s a potential here to bring together facilities management, design community and HR. The outcome of having those three often siloed businesses actually communicating and sharing the concept of WELL, I think is, is really a game changer in the industry.

A very recent study that was actually released by McKinsey absolutely shows the correlation between certification, like buildings that actually don’t just try and design in, but actually measure the outcome. And so buildings that actually deliver WELL certification and they can show a correlation in improvement not only in health and productivity, but also in self-proclaimed mental health and improvement in workplace happiness, workplace satisfaction.

Chris: So, noting the points Paul and Leagh made earlier, we’re back to wellbeing – and particularly how data can evidence the role workplaces can play in feelings of satisfaction and belonging.

Sue: Inclusion – it really matters because today’s workforce is more diverse than ever, and not just about generations or job roles, but also in terms of how people think, process the information and experience the world. We are having much more, kind of, open conversations around neurodiversity now, which is really important.

Ann-Marie: Going back to neurodiversity in the younger generations – I think we need a lot of training from managers for senior leadership to really understand how to normalise these mental health conversations.

How to really be able to check in on folks, having wellbeing protocols that can help leadership understand when someone’s being challenged and be able to kind of capture that really quickly.

Sue: If we actually embed this kind of inclusive kind of design from the beginning of the process, there should be loads of different kind of elements we can take into account. We don’t just remove barriers. We can also create the spaces where people can actually thrive together. And also it’s not just about that specific group of people. I think it’s for everyone in the workplace.

Ann-Marie: I keep going back to the attention challenge, because I do feel that even though this younger generation has grown up with a phone in their hand and a laptop and a TV in the background, I don’t think it’s servicing them.

And I, I don’t think we’re there to turn this problem around. But I think we have to be able to provide spaces. For more in-person creative conversation, mentoring, social support.

So I think we have to start thinking about what are these decisions that we’re making that will have multiple benefits? We need to start thinking about what’s going to generate a physical health and mental health, a social health benefit, by these decisions.

Ian: And if we’re talking about attention again, we have to acknowledge the risk that technology can jeopardise it. Although, Sue has a more pragmatic workplace design-focused angle that we haven’t heard on the episode so far.

Sue: Technology is moving from being an optional add-on to becoming an enabler of workplace experience. So tools like sensors, AI, even personalised environmental controls, are already helping workplaces respond in real time to people’s needs, whether that’s adjusting air quality or temperature, even managing space use, and supporting hybrid collaboration as well.

But the real value is when technology quietly removes friction and supports flexibility and gives people a sense of controls of their work days. That’s the, the moment technology stops being a distraction to becoming a genuine part of a better workplace experience.

Ian: Of course, we can’t have an episode where we talk about future technology without talking about AI too…

Sue: AI can actually anticipate the needs of the people, whether it’s adjusting environmental settings before they become a problem, or forecasting space utilisation, so resources are in the right place at the right time.

And also, AI can be more personalised because it can tailor experience to individuals, helping colleagues feel more in control of their day – from recommending the best time to come to the office, to configuring lighting or temperature to their preference.

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Chris: So, inclusive design, sensory awareness, tech that helps not hinders, and environments that protect and maximise attention. The question now is: where is all this heading?

Ian: Well, the way I’d explain it, is – in terms of workplace knowledge and practice – actually kind of ‘back to the future’. Let’s return to Paul and Leah to explain.

Paul: I do think we have to have some difficult conversations, some ‘hashtag awks’ conversations about the use of technology, the etiquette. If I’m in a meeting, why have we all got laptops on our desk? Why have we all got phones with us? If we’re all together, how can we maximize the time that we’re together?

Unfortunately, as I talk about in my presentations, we can’t multitask. Our brains are human brains, 1.0. And they’re at least 200,000 years old, and they can’t multitask.

We’re brilliant at being distracted. It’s why we’ve survived so long, ’cause we’re fantastic at being distracted. And that’s a good skill if you’ve got snakes around you and panthers and stuff, it’s a calamitous skill in an office.

Ian: My hunch is that from this perspective, just focusing on workplace experience as ‘delight’ might be a bit of a red herring. What if the very best experience is actually something far more meaningful?

Paul: People worry about the trimmings and the wellbeing pods and so on. And it’s not, it’s about attention. Whether I can really feel that I’m moving forward, that I’m getting things done. I’m making a difference.

And if I’m in the flow, if I really feel that this is what I’m here to do and what I’m meant to do with my life, then there’s nothing more powerful than that.

Chris: Of course, turning all of this into an operational reality requires something workplaces rarely achieve: strategic alignment.

Leagh: All in all, we can design super flexible, inclusive policies. We can support the diverse needs of the workforce, but we need to highlight the unique benefits of actually in-person working, in order for development, connection and socialisation.

And this isn’t new to most organisations, but what is, is the connectivity between the organisational strategy, the property strategy, the workplace design strategy, and then the FM delivery model. They are still so hugely disconnected, and they need to become more and more integrated in order to have that single view of what does that workplace of the future look like and how we can support all five generations.

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Ian: Ok, it’s time once again to revisit our episode question: ‘How do workplaces need to adapt to attract and support multigenerational talent?’ Do you wanna take this one Christopher?

Chris: No problem. I think it’s actually a counterintuitive answer. To design for multigenerations, stop focusing so intensely on generations, because you risk making assumptions and decisions that might come back and bite you. Instead, think about the universals of human experience at work – attention, wellbeing and purpose – and then recognise that different individuals and groups will almost certainly have different needs and perspectives. Be aware of your own bias. Seek to understand through data and evidence. And recognise that a great workplace experience is a blend of physical, social and technological elements – and work on them together.

Ian: Very wise! So, the generational framework can be a heuristic, which is a fancy word for ‘rule of thumb’, for not how different ages definitively behave, but awareness of how they might perceive the world. And amidst these different expectations and needs, our role is to enable the best from all employees. Do that well, and corporate and human needs can both be met.

Chris: Absolutely. And on that note, let’s give the last words this time to Elizabeth then Sarah from Lloyds.

Elizabeth: Investment in that workplace experience is an absolute strategic imperative. The ROI on that is effectively improved productivity. If you’re transactional, if you are 100% reactive, you’re not going to get that enablement.

Sarah: We are wanting to create really deep connections within our workforce. We are wanting to learn and grow and thrive and enable colleagues of all cultures, generations. And any uniqueness that they have to feel like they belong in part of a company, in part of a workplace, in part of a team.

Because if you feel like you truly belong and feel safe within an environment, you are gonna do your best work. Your best work is done when you feel like you are really psychologically safe, physically safe in an environment. You feel like you belong, and you feel that you’re connected to something bigger.

Chris:  Thanks for joining us, the Workplace Geeks on the High-Performing Places Podcast from Mitie.

Ian:  We hope you enjoyed listening as much as we did putting the show together. Don’t forget to subscribe for the other episodes in the series.

Chris: See you next time.